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Finding the right people requires people doing the right way of finding
A friend of mine recently attended a conference panel entitled “How to Win the War For Talent.” Maybe you’ve seen this phrase used somewhere, too. I couldn’t believe people still use it in November 2008.
It’s bullshit.
If you read an article or attend a conference panel entitled “How To Win The War For Talent,” trust me: the last thing you’ll learn is how to win the war for talent.
Because there is no war for talent. Not in this day and age, not in the advertising industry, and especially not in this economy. There’s a war ON talent.
I roll my eyes whenever I hear some agency exec or recruiter say, “I can’t find good people.” If that’s you, I have news for you: Good people are all around you. Your problems are simple ones, and they’re solvable if you’re willing to solve them.
Maybe you’re not looking in the right places or doing what it takes to recruit them. Or you’re not evaluating skills, resumes or talent properly. Or you don’t know how to find the right place for someone you can’t automatically peg. Talented people are creating content and developing skills that don’t jump out of a one-page resume or 12-ad portfolio. Some of the biggest innovations in advertising were literally and technologically impossible to do 10 or 15 years ago. New job types and new job descriptions are being created every day. Are you stuck trying to put new people in new jobs using old evaluation methods?
Then there’s the lack of common courtesy. Sorry, HR people, creative managers, and hiring managers, but if you can’t return a phone call, an email, or a job inquiry, you’re not properly managing your human resources. You should quit the business, or be fired. Period. If you can’t treat prospective employees with the same respect your bosses treat prospective clients, you’re not helping your company.
Perhaps nobody who’s truly talented wants to work for your agency. Maybe the work on your agency’s website is weak or outdated. Maybe the work environment isn’t uplifting and the word has spread in your community that conditions aren’t good. Maybe the people aren’t nice or your office is politically charged and everyone knows it. Or simply put, you’re not paying enough, although I believe that’s way down on the list.
Maybe you’re in New York, Chicago, San Francisco or other market people flock to. Yet your agency doesn’t fly people in to interview or pay even a minimum of travel expenses. Or you won’t pay to relocate someone. We’re talking about someone who’s willing to uproot their lives and their family to come work for you. Trust me, the money you spend on relocating the right person more than makes up for the otherwise billable hours you spend looking at the wrong ones.
Agencies with bad reputations are known worldwide for their bad reputations now. Like disgruntled customers, there will always be a dissatisfied employee. But if it’s a consistent pattern, no amount of PR will help you. The word gets spread, and spread fast. If you wage war on talent, you don’t have the right to expect great people lining up to work for you.
Now, for those of you who think this is a one-sided screed, let me now address the “talent”:
As Hyman Roth said in The Godfather Part II, “This is the business we’ve chosen.” No one owes you anything. Like an auto worker in Detroit or a textile mill worker in North Carolina, you’re expendable.
Agencies will dump people at the first sign of trouble, a pending account loss, an anticipated revenue drop, or merely if you look at someone the wrong way. That’s nothing new. It’s part of the business and always has been. There are still more people wanting to get in and work in this business than available jobs. And there has never been any type of job security, or linear path to success. It’s your responsibility to show up, be professional and do your best. But sometimes, that simply won’t be enough to keep you employed, and you need to prepare for that. Take it from someone who’s lived in 5 states in 12 years.
Every day, whether by necessity or dream, people in advertising strike out on their own. If the manager of a Taco Bell can run a business, so can you. The cliche is true: if you’re not the lead dog, the view never changes.
But entrepreneurialism isn’t for everyone. That’s why good people apply for jobs in ad agencies every day. No one works in advertising or marketing, working for someone else, to get wealthy. It beats manual labor, for sure. We do it for other reasons; because the work is interesting, the people are unusual, because the output of the work—an ad, a video, a website—is tangible. Some people safely push papers and balance spreadsheets all their lives. We opted for something else.
Good people are everywhere. And it’s like not the ad industry has requirements. There’s no certification to acquire. No Bar exam to pass. Anyone who wants to get into the ad industry can try. Many try, but only some succeed. Consequently, it’s not a job seeker’s market and never has been.
So if you’re looking for talent, believe me: You can do it. Finding the right talent isn’t easy. It requires diligence, time and effort. But it is most definitely not a “war.”
Peace out.
November 6, 2008
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| Risa (Alabama) |
on 05 Apr 2009 at 12:10 pm |
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Hi. What's the earth With all its art, verse, music, worth - Compared with love, found, gained, and kept?
I am from Jordan and also now teach English, tell me right I wrote the following sentence: "Sponsored results for airline tickets."
Thanks :-(. Risa. |
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| Paley (New York) |
on 03 Apr 2009 at 3:00 pm |
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Hi all. As a scientist, I am not sure anymore that life can be reduced to a class struggle, to dialectical materialism, or any set of formulas. Life is spontaneous and it is unpredictable, it is magical. I think that we have struggled so hard with the tangible that we have forgotten the intangible.
I am from Syria and know bad English, give true I wrote the following sentence: "On the heels of the farecast post from earlier today I looked around and realized that we never asked you."
Regards :-D Paley. |
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| Paul D. Kwak (Northern Virginia/Washington, DC) |
on 07 Jan 2009 at 2:03 pm |
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Very well written and very timely. One of the most "real" articles I've read on Talent Zoo.
Many people in the industry don't know what they're getting into and this filters out the ones without true passion for the work.
It's like those "choose your own adventure" books.. only thing is, it's not as easy as flipping back a few pages to start over.
I think the more evolved we become with technology, media, and communication; the more opportunities we will create for ourselves. So, my advice: use the same creative juices you put into your work to present yourself in different markets and other industries. Creative talent is always needed one way or another.
Easier said than done and I know, pretty risky, but hey.. the first person to win over is yourself. |
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| Elvira Gallegos (Elgin Illinois) |
on 06 Jan 2009 at 6:13 pm |
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I'm a Graphic Designer seeking permanent, full-time work. I apply for jobs that I know I can do and I have the skills and knowledge to do the job. I just wonder, what the heck more do they want?
I'm signed up with various staffing firms. Many of them don't really care about me (and I know that). But, I still waste my time and take my chances. But, it's truly hard finding a great recruiter that totally stay's in touch (in general) with you.
When I go interview with a recruiter about a certain position and the interview is all done, what's with the "If you don't hear from me by Tuesday (or whatever day), call me!". Puleeez!...LOL YOU'RE the one that should call me!! That's if you did send my resume to the client, etc. YOU should call me and let me know "I sent your resume, but I still have not heard anything yet" or whatever....You know? I know you're busy....We're ALL BUSY!!
The same goes for an actual company. If you've taken the time to go meet with them, after the interview(unless you actually got the job you'll get a phone call). They should e-mail/snail mail you something, whether you got the job or not. Instead of just leaving you hang there...LOL
Sometimes, I just don't understand how some people have the jobs they have. They don't know how to interview, they don't know how to set-up/type a correct business letter, etc.
Well, I've learned not to get my hope up high. I just keep on searching.
Great article! I hope many recruiter's and actual company's read this article. |
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| CAR54STL@AOL.com (St. Louis, MO) |
on 06 Jan 2009 at 1:00 pm |
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PS - considering myself a "talented" writer, I guess it would have been appropriate for me to use spell check before sending out my first response. Being unemployed, though not an excuse for misspellings and bad grammar, being away from a written work for long sometimes causes you to be lax in such areas. But, I hope I helped validate Danny's article all the same. Thanks for understanding.
CAR |
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| CAR54STL (St. Louis) |
on 06 Jan 2009 at 11:14 am |
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Amen, Danny! And, thank you!
Kudos on writing a thought provoking article that hits the head on the nail. I'm hoping this will become a serious sermon for both employers and would be "talent" alike. For me, being laid off and out of work since early August 08 - the first time without work in about 20 years - winning the trust of potential employers seems to be the most challenging aspect of finding employment nowadays. Things have certainly changed in a just a decade. With passion and devotion I started my job right out of college, following in the footsteps of my university professor who owned his own ad bussiness for 40 years - he started out as a copywriter for a department store - as did I with the same passion and conviction. Over 15 years, I worked my way from copywriter to senior copywriter to advertising copy chief to finally getting the pink slip. An eye-opening experience - leaving the corporate creative world to hopefully land another creative job anywhere - especially getting my foor in the door at an agency -ha - seems nearly impossible. After 5+ months trying to win the trust of a(nother) potential employer, I'm 'bout ready to throw in the towel. With my last position being a mid-level job - I feel like I am teetering on the move forward to creative copy director or take steps back to copywriting days to show a potential company my passion and devotion. Not being able to do either, yet so passionate about my "talent," I've turned my to volunteering and help teaching creative writing skills to the homeless. A deed that hopefully will raise a few eyebrows. Because, it's not what you know anymore, it's who you know. Gone are the days where you spent money on stamps and printed out your resumes on nice paper and mailed them into companies and received a response (by mail) in return. And, the first question out of a potential employer's mouth isn't a talent based question like, "what can you bring to our company?" It's more like, "what is your salary history/requirements?" It's sad in this economy - when people are desperately searching for work at any price - that money, cattle-like hiring systems and "who you know" still wins over "talent."
Thanks again for a great article. |
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| Judi Wunderlich (Chicago) |
on 06 Jan 2009 at 10:24 am |
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Hear Hear!! I love that people are talking openly about this. As a creative who went into the recruiting biz because I'm a natural-born 'helper', my biggest frustration is with hiring managers who treat job seekers like invading weeds in a garden. And don't even get me started on the issue of AGEISM in agencies, which is so rampant and invasive!!!
Speaking of which, a group of 4 out-of-work marketers/creatives and myself just met on Sunday to form a networking community that will help bridge the generational gaps so apparent in the workplace today, as well as helping people, of all ages, who wish to be employed in advertising/marketing/creative jobs. If anyone else is interested in something like this, email me - jwunderlich@aquent.com |
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| Grace (Detroit) |
on 05 Jan 2009 at 3:47 pm |
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| Thanks everyone, this is just the answer I needed. I'm done with advertising, and going to nursing school. After 10 years in the ad biz, I've seen more shit, guts and gore than I'll see in a hospital for a long time. At least there I won't have to worry about being kicked to the curb because I'm old or not enough of a talent-less ego maniac. |
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| Chicago Gal (Tinley Park Illinois) |
on 02 Jan 2009 at 5:51 pm |
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I couldn't agree more with this article. I have had HR people stand me up on phone interviews, others not even give me a response after 5 hours of in-person interviews, and even an agency owner tell me during an interview that my apartment complex is "the ghetto".
One agency I worked for gave me all of these psych tests before I started (which I passed), then proceeded to hire a drunk as my supervisor. She literally would come into the office so intoxicated she couldn't form a sentence. Did she pass those "psych" tests too!??!?!
It seems to be less and less about doing great work, and more about bad management and politics in the Ad world today. I'm starting to wonder how bad it'll get. |
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| The Typist (Somewhere in Upstate New York) |
on 02 Jan 2009 at 10:22 am |
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I'm glad to hear that the radio silence I have experienced from website-email interactions with agencies isn't just me.
The Internet has presented powerful new ways of truly connecting. And, far too often, it merely perpetuates the illusion of connection.
The painful process reveals itself when you read a job listing that seeks talented individuals who can write or design "kickass" creative-- plus stand for several hours and lift 25 pounds. The same people who write these thoughtful job descriptions are the folks who are NOT READING YOUR RESUME.
In many cases, your resume is scanned and scored by an ALGORITHM. That thoughtful one-inch high field for the COVER LETTER you carefully draft for hours-- is it ever read by a human, or by a Taleo app?
If they can't find talent out there it's because they've created gatekeeper algorithms to unburden the human gatekeepers you will never see or hear from.
In the old days, you could send the gatekeeper flowers. (There was still no guarantee that the CD would look at or admire your work. But at least you have connected!)
My advice: rules are meant for suckers. If you can't win at their game, change the game.
Only connect! HNY,
thetypist |
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| XGB (Seattle) |
on 18 Nov 2008 at 1:42 pm |
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Most guys my age are running agencies, but I came in late.
So I got myself a website. And I made some spec videos for a tiny but cool brand and put them on YouTube. Now I'm a New Media freakin' expert and my gray hair helps calm clients down because I look distinguished.
The internets are the future.
XGB |
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| Jeff Bach (Stoughton Wisconsin) |
on 18 Nov 2008 at 1:41 pm |
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Walking the dog always gives me time to think. Today, I thought about the difference between tactics and strategy. HUGE differences. Tactics are short term, bite size, require not so much relationship, and usually occupy the lower rungs of the value chain. Strategy is big picture, long term, and is almost always part of a relationship. Strategy is almost always more valuable than tactics. I think strategy guides the tactics. Strategy creates. Tactics merely implement.
I think that too often CVs are filled with tactical bits and pieces. Those tactics do not do justice to the writer's strategic abilities. More importantly though, I think that a person's strategic value often cannot be communicated in a CV and that an HR sort of person cannot discern someone's strategic value from a CV. Instead they look at those low value tactical buzz words as a means of assessing our worth.
Where does understanding your strategy level experience come in to play? From a relationship. This is the part that clicked on my walk today. As cliched as it is, the valuable jobs tend to come from your network, from the people that know you. Why is that? Because the people that know you can ascertain your strategic value and pass that on to others.
Job boards and the Monsters of the world deal only in the low value tactics of the world because that is really all that a CV can convey. We all get frustrated at job searching because I think we understand our own strategic value but those !@#$ HR types only talk in the language of tactics. So there is rarely an opportunity or the time to get in front of someone and explain/develop our own strategic value to that person.
my .02 ... blame it on walking in the first snow of the year
JB |
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| "Over Qualified" (New York) |
on 18 Nov 2008 at 12:06 pm |
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Danny G, another insightful, spot-on article.
Do you have any helpful insights for the “over qualified” or… we aren’t allowed to say it… (age disadvantaged) job seekers struggling to stay in the job market?
Any suggestions for a veteran (oops, that means old), seasoned (oops, that means old, too), experienced (everyone says that), accomplished (yeah well, most of those accomplishments were before I was born) creative professional who wants/needs to continue working. For the record, this creative professional has no ego hang-ups, bad attitude or professional enemies. Professional friends, however, that’s a different story, as most are similarly struggling to stay afloat or have managed to find a lifeboat.
Any thoughts on whether, or if said accomplished professional can market self in the youth-culture work place? Any way to turn talent and accomplishments into assets worthy of consideration in a workplace that values enthusiasm and potential? |
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| Etrigan (Elsewhere, Nebraska) |
on 15 Nov 2008 at 9:39 pm |
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I applaud A Contrarian for most of his/her cogent comments and would like to share a few of my own.
Indeed, 90% of people who apply for creative advertising jobs are not inherently qualified (for advertised openings). While majoring in advertising may teach you technique, terminology, history, theory, and other basics, you can't teach talent in any line of work. The world is overflowing with gifted writers, artists, musicians, lawyers, broadcasters, fill-in-the-blank who can either run circles around certain others who "made it" or, conversely, those who cling to some "I'm the next American Idol" fantasy because of some well-meaning family member, career counselor or teacher/professor who told you you had a "knack for words/drawing." A miniscule part of the advertising world consists of the :30 spot that gets water cooler props the Monday after it airs during the Super Bowl; the real trick is crafting "killer copy" about why Schfettlner's is the Champagne of Garden Mulches, on a limited budget, on a limited time frame, appeasing a gauntlet of lazy, dull, and short-sighted clients and colleagues alike in the process.
That said, rather than continue to trample in the vineyards of sour grapes much longer, I concur with A Contrarian in terms of making yourself horrendously overqualified. The recent economic tsunami is merely another coffin in the nail of creative advertising careers. The issue before us is to make the answer to the stock question "Why should we hire you?" "How can you NOT?" If they won't hire you, make them sorry they didn't. We're entering a new age where self-reliance, I think, is going to, personally, wean me off job boards (including Talent Zoo, I'm afraid) that have had an insanely low ROI, find my voice and my own USP, and sell it as hard as I can. Besides my agency experience and persistence, it may well be that I didn't let 'em beat me. |
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| Writer Ho (Dallas) |
on 14 Nov 2008 at 5:20 pm |
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And to add insult to injury...
A former AE colleague of mine contacted me yesterday regarding outsourcing of work from a pretty large client.
(Not the agency. The actual client.)
Long story short, the mktg. coordinator emailed me wanting a designer!
Seriously. WTF?
Did they not even LOOK at my resume? Do they even KNOW who the f does what, etc?!
Again, like I said before, if you have HALF a brain, go on the account side/marketing side. You'll be a genius! |
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| A contrarian (Salt and Vinegar) |
on 14 Nov 2008 at 10:10 am |
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I'm sorry, but I think saying that you can't find a job because advertising is a "high-demand" profession is an excuse. As discussed, 90% of the people who want in are not qualified. If you make yourself qualified, have proven results, and a unique perspective, what do you care about the 90% of people who aren't qualified. If the agency hires someone who truly doesn't know their a** from a hole in the ground over you, then you don't want to be working there anyway. A fish stinks from the head.
If your portfolio doesn't immediately put you among the best, then get to work. Do spec if you have to. Choose the people in your profession whom you consider the best, and then set out to prove (hypothetically) why an agency should hire them over you.
If you've demonstrated your mojo, and your peers have honestly recognized it, there may be some other reason why you're not standing out. Have you put your work online, in a compelling way? Could you start a blog? Position yourself as an expert in any other way?
I agree the lack of respect, disorganization, discrimination, and knee-jerk behavior demonstrated by advertising agencies is discouraging. And it's an endemic problem in this industry, to be sure. Unfortunately, you can't change that when you're on the outside looking in. What you can change is yourself. If working in this industry means that much to you, than it's worth the effort.
Or, get out of the business. Given the way this industry is going, that may be a spectacularly wonderful idea. Get a good job doing something else, and be creative on your own time. Awesome people with good jobs leave this business all the time. There's no shame in it. |
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| Danny G. (Atlanta) |
on 11 Nov 2008 at 9:13 pm |
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Thanks everyone!
I appreciate all the wonderful compliments and your thoughtful responses. It absolutely makes my day to see them all.
Please keep the conversation going. I think we can all learn from these shared experiences. |
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| Jeff Bach (Madison, WI.) |
on 11 Nov 2008 at 4:54 pm |
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Somewhere in this thread someone said "...there are too many people trying to get into this industry..."
The horror stories and nasty treatment issues are what happens in a buyer's market. Come on you people - think a little. We are all commodities NOT specialties. There are too many people trying to get into too few jobs. Employers can do pretty much whatever they want to make your life miserable because typically the skills they are looking for in a new employee can be easily found in numerous other people. You are just as disposable and low value as I am or the next person. Employers are not bad people, but they more or less know that they don't need to spend time on people they don't know (like you when you are looking for that job).
To me, the answer is to think long and hard about the skill set you have. What interests you AND is needed in the marketplace that is in SHORT supply rather than OVERSUPPLY. One of my favorite managers would always say, "be the jack of all trades, but the MASTER of two." I believe the trick is to find those two things that are in short supply (aka a specialty) and market those skills more than the general skills that so many others have. And no, pretty much anything in PSD is a commodity, with not much value. Find something else.
If you don't have any specialty skills? Develop some. What could those specialty skills be? I think specialty skills arise when you combine art and tech. Flash is the easiest example. Everybody can create something in Flash using the interface. How many can make something in Flash using Actionscript? MOST creatives simply don't have the stones to work at learning AS. You be the creative that does have the discipline to learn a specialty like Actionscript (for example) and you just might find yourself in demand.
Good luck to us all! |
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| Julie Boton (Vancouver) |
on 11 Nov 2008 at 2:13 pm |
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Thank you for going inside my head! Could not have said it better regarding the MESS internet job boards, voice mail and HR screening has made out of the career match process.
Nowhere is this more true than in contract and freelance work. When you mention "freelance" anywhere in a full-time online job application, my experience over the years has been your resume never reaches the creative director who also may be using freelance. Because the HR screeners only present resumes of people seeking "full time" work.
Most viable freelance for large corporations is hired through the creative departments directly, not through HR. This requires relationship building. So how do you build relationships with the right people when the HR screeners or temp agencies are not willing or allowed to put you in touch with them?
I've gone "rogue" to get to people above the HR screeners -- phone tricks to find the names of creative directors, such as asking the HR person for their first name when addressing your resume, and then calling back the switchboard and finding out their last name by pretending I just was speaking with them and forgot to write it down.
If I get the name of the creative director's assistant I introduce myself to them and ask for help, things like that.
Creative Circle and their like of "temp" services have also harmed our ability to get freelance work more than they've helped it, in my opinion. My experience with these agencies is that they have more turnaround than your average McDonald's, and not all "talent reps" have a clue what they are doing. But these agencies are a convenient turnkey source for corporations, and so they keep expanding as "gatekeepers". Their function is to keep the client to themselves -- and to keep you from working directly for said client. Also, beware when showing your portfolio and giving references to these companies, as obtaining the names of YOUR clients is one of the primary ways they scout new companies to contact and contract with! Which could leave you out of the equation.
By the way, to find names of people at large corporations like Starbucks or Amazon, nothing beats riding up and down in an elevator with employees and talking with them. You'd be surprised how many people know it's a "there but for the grace of God go I" world, and will actually give you a viable contact name.
Getting a contract directly from the CD is the best revenge. |
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| Burnt out (Miami) |
on 11 Nov 2008 at 1:31 pm |
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To writer Ho Dallas - it's gotta be better in TX! I'm a freelance writer in FLA and just when I think I've seen it all, I continue to be amazed by the lack of respect for effective copywriting down here. It wasn't that long ago that copywriting was considered a professional skills set/occupation: you may not get rich, but you could definitely make a decent career and pay the bills doing it.
Now too many clients see it as an entry-level production function...it's really lost a lot of respect...and sites like elance and sologig certainly aren't helping the profession.
The trend I'm seeing more often: full-time job openings seeking a "designer/writer" - how's THAT for multi-tasking?
Do companies seriously expect the same employee to handle complex, high-end photoshop and flash work one day, then whip out strategic copy concepts and effective, powerful sales copywriting the next? (I guess they figure the writing is the "easy" part.) Oh yeah: all for the impressive sum of $35k/yr plus benefits. |
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| Ragan K (Atlanta, GA) |
on 11 Nov 2008 at 1:30 pm |
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OK, I'll bite. Yes, those evil folks you guys speak of ARE reading this. And yes, we know how hard it is conducting a job search. I 100% agree with all of the comments regarding common courtesy in this industry, as well as DannyG's column, however, there are a couple of things I'd like to note from the other side of the desk.
One, you probably have no idea how many resumes come in from just one posting online and 90% of them are completely unqualified for the position (one reason i personally despise job boards.) Just sifting through the myriad of resumes from a SINGLE posting on a SINGLE board is a fulltime job, and unfortunately not every resume can be answered. Especially when the majority of the applicants have completely disregarded the requirements of the job. If it says you must have XYZ experience, that is a requirement of the job - no ifs ands or buts. We dont make those rules, that's just how it is.
Secondly, if you have ever worked in an agency before you know there are many times that internal issues prohibit timely feedback, next steps etc...Namely, those that pay the bils - clients. Unfortunately, there's nothing we can do about client bottlenecks except try and mitigate the risk as best we can. You might see that as us "shirking our responsibilities to give you the bad news" but honestly we are trying to get movement just as much as you are. Starting a search over from square one that you have already done sucks, we're definitely not drawing out the process for kicks.
If you are not getting feedback from your resume/book etc...it could be from an unresponsive recruiter or HR manager, yes, but it could also be possibly because you are simply not what the agency is looking for. There's nothing wrong with that -just as not every agency is what you are looking for. Also, take great care in your applications - i cannot count how many times there are misspellings in cover emails, references to another agency's listing, etc...in inquiries I receive. Huge turnoff immediately.
DannyG is right - there is TONS of great talent out there, unfortunately not all talent is the right talent for a specific agency, for whatever reason. It may be the CD doesnt like your choice of font. It might be what you stated your goals are dont necessarily fit with the position goals. It might be that you are too qualified for the level of position you are applying for and no matter how many times you say "i just am looking for the right opportunity" the agency has been burned by that in the past when the person wants a raise and promotion within 6 months.
All we ask from the "dark side" is for you to be as conscientious as you are asking a potential employer to be. Thank you to DannyG for raising such a great conversation! |
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| Clint Thomas (Charleston West Virginia) |
on 11 Nov 2008 at 12:48 pm |
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And all these years, I thought it was just me going through this confounding dearth of courtesy "out there."
I often liken the job interview to a first date, because of the obvious parallels: first impressions, common bonds, wooing, and the underlying, but unspoken, desire to get laid/paid at some point.
But, like the blind date who heads to the lavatory in the middle of dinner, never to return, the employer vanishes into the night.
I guess the most demoralizing part is getting no response from the company, particularly when they seem initally overzealous to get you there for an interview. To belabor the metaphor more, it's the follow-up phone call that never comes.
I have been screened by HR people at face-to-face interviews and then "stood up" on a couple of occasions from the people I was supposed to meet. This is disheartening particularly when I have shelled out a few hundred bucks for my own airfare and accommodations to meet with them.
Invariably, I have had to take writing tests at the employer's behest. Humbling, but I can knock them out of the park. (I guess they worry that I've plagiarized the writing samples they've already seen and I've doctored my resume and reference list, as well.)
I have gotten the ol' bait and switch on plenty of occasions, too. I can understand doing some AE work and pitching in where needed, but there have been some ancillary duties that weren't mentioned until I got there: changing the office cat's litterbox, becoming a licensed stockbroker, pitching in as a Home Show roadie, etc.
I appreciate reading that it seems to be the rule instead of the exception nowadays. |
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| Lisa (Orlando) |
on 11 Nov 2008 at 12:38 pm |
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Well said from everyone. We are all experiencing the same thing. Closed doors through the internet searches, which seems to be the only way that companies want to get a resume. Also, many of the companies will not allow you to send a resume unless there is an actual opening. How many companies can one person keep track of every day?
Also, those folks that are looking at creatives resumes have no idea whatsoever what to look for to present to the creative managers who are actually the ones needing talent. I have first-hand experience with this: I worked for two companies through temp assignments, Darden Restaurants who had at least five resumes from me and they hired someone who is adequate, but no depth in their experience. I filled a few day assignment for them months after their posted opening, which turned out to be a three-week gig and Darden has been requesting me back ever since. I also worked temp for Disney, and the manager there said the same thing, that the resumes coming from the HR department are screened and when he interviews people sometimes he wonders why the HR sent this person with the worst portfolio he has ever seen.
My suggestion, to the people who are in the creative management position, who will end up working with the people sent from HR, why don't you go over the HR people's heads and look at the resumes yourself and ask the ones that interest you for three samples of their personal favorite/best work so that the competition is fair. Then call in those people to interview. Also, can we not talk salaries and all that until you have a group of people who are all qualified? Why not pay a little more for the person who is seasoned and that has five more skills than the "newby" that should earn less? The seasoned person, who is out of work and can't imagine being in any other job, and has a FAMILY TO SUPPORT, they will be the ones who can do more for your company and talk your clients into spending the right amount because it's better for their business, and be able to get along with everyone, and meet your deadlines, and be able to come up with more ideas in a short amount of times because they are used to it.
What I wonder is, if those hiring managers and HR people are actually reading this blog or is it only those of us who are in the same boat? We need to get the word out there to the HR people somehow that the internet thing is not working, and that just because it's easier to get resumes that way, doesn't mean they are getting the best people. And that they need to be more kind and polite, especially now that many of us are at our wits end with too many layoffs. We are the talent that make the companies money, we should have some respect at least have some follow up. |
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| NYC_AD (New York) |
on 11 Nov 2008 at 11:54 am |
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You said it. Thank you for saying it. I hope the people who SHOULD be reading this ARE reading this. I remember a few years back I had an interview at a large global agency. I waited for the Creative Recruiter for over an hour only to find out she was out to lunch. I left and would never ever go to work at that place. All because of one persons lack of consideration.
Now I deal with a new ECD at my current agency who hasn't spent one minute sitting down with people to see what they've done, their interests, etc. He's too busy bringing in all his old creative buddies from past jobs. |
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| John Nagara (Atlanta) |
on 11 Nov 2008 at 11:23 am |
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It seems to be a common trend among most industries these days that the most arrogant tend to be the least informed.
finding a human resource person that actually seeks out "resources" is next to impossible these days. Mostly they function as gate keepers and spend more time keeping people, that dont fit through their cookie cutter filters, out then they do getting the best possible people in.
The web was actually a functional tool in a job search once upon a time too. Now its a shield for most HR and hiring mangers to hide behind. I remember a point in my career where you were expected to follow up, and show the person doing the hiring that you were REALLY interested in working for them.
Now its "dont bother us, we'll bother you". |
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| stache (nyc) |
on 11 Nov 2008 at 11:13 am |
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Very good article. The talent IS out there, and they want to connect with the companies, but how? Many top companies hire 95% of their staff through word-of-mouth refferal, so they may end up hiring the most popular people, with te most friends, but not the most talented people.
Talented people, as the article clearly shows, are walking right up to companies doors and beign turned away. For my experience as a designer, if my resume goes through the HR department, it't the kiss of death. The people there really don't know what they're looking for.
Another thing that bothers me about big agencies, though I generally love 'em, is that they look too far for talent and are missing the talent in their own back yard. As a native NYer, it really bothers me when a company i'm working with spends thousands to recruit from other states while refusing those jobs to more talented NYers.
If every other aspect of running a company is a business and done in a profressional manner, shouldn't hiring be, too? |
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| Julie K (Metro Detroit) |
on 11 Nov 2008 at 11:06 am |
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I'm 100% up for relocation and have applied for several position in NY, NJ and PA and have gotten practically zero response.
I don't waste time applying for jobs I'm not qualified for and my cover letter includes that I even have family in the area with immediate temp lodging.
My thought is that employers just don't want to deal with a "RELO" -- even a free/easy one. Or maybe they think I'm "using" them to move. I'm considering using my brother's NY address to get a bite. Any thoughts/advice? |
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| Julie K (Metro Detroit) |
on 11 Nov 2008 at 10:54 am |
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It's sad to say, but the lack professionalism and courtesy of HR and managers extends far beyond "big agencies."
Most of my career spent in in-house or small groups, I target them. The story is the same... I've had lengthy phone and even face-to-face interviews that close with a promised call or email. I follow up, but get zero response.
My worst example... I contracted with a company for weeks -- helping them out of a jam, then later got a call about a "possible" opening to see if I was interested. "I'll let you know in a couple days," he said. Once again, nothing, even after my follow up -- and I "know and have worked with the company already, and got rave reviews." No one is THAT busy.
If a "ding letter" is not sent to every applicant, especially when there's hundreds, I can let that go, but when I used to review resumes, if I made any contact, even a phone call, I would at least send a generic "thanks for playing" email. Simply written, you can BCC everyone at once, so there is no excuse not to.
Thanks Danny, for putting this out there. At least I know I'm not alone. |
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| Jack Nearly (NYC) |
on 11 Nov 2008 at 10:52 am |
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Well said.
Headhunters suck. Suits suck. |
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| Sherri B (Chicago, IL) |
on 11 Nov 2008 at 10:39 am |
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You hit the nail on the head when you address how Hiring Managers and HR don't treat prospective talent properly. I am a Recruiter in the business and we are always trying to counsel our clients on why it's important to respond quickly and give us proper feedback after interviews out of respect to the candidates.
You'd be surprised how many do not give the candidates some kind of "closure" and when they do find a great person they feel can do the job, they want to keep interviewing to "compare" them to other candidates. By the time they come back, the original candidate has taken another position.
It seems that most HR pre-screens are focused on finding out why a candidate is NOT right for them vs. finding out what talent they do have and what they can bring to the agency.
In my recruiting firm we believe that it’s not a question of whether we can help clients find talent and fill their open jobs; rather, it’s a question of whether the client (HR, Hiring Managers, etc.) will provide us with the respect and cooperation necessary to fill the positions. Usually we are missing the second part- cooperation and respect for our candidates and the work we do to find talent. |
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| Writer Ho (Dallas) |
on 11 Nov 2008 at 10:36 am |
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Brandon, my advice to you. Go on the account side (your creatives will LOVE you) or client side in entry-level marketing. (Plenty of small bus riders on that side!)
Whenever I'm concerned about how well my 8-yr-old son will do out there when he has to find a job, I always think, "well, at least he can always get a job in marketing!" And I'm NOT kidding!
You'll have WAY more job security and will never have a problem finding another one.
I've actually been trying to get back client-side as a brand manager or the like, but b/c I have "too much experience" (okay, how the f is that a problem? almost as bad as when a client once noted that my writing was too clever!)
Plus, most places think that creatives are mostly art school / no business sense types (even writers!). They and HR have absolutely NO idea WHAT we do and that we often do HALF of account people's jobs on a daily basis, i.e. asking the "right" questions, offering often-missed strategies and better ideas.
I just got one of those mass HR response emails (with a typo no less!) yesterday.
And to J. Fox, we should join forces! |
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| Andrew (NYC) |
on 11 Nov 2008 at 10:35 am |
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| Very well put. You are right to touch on the arrogance that sometimes characterizes the industry. Failing to return a job seeker's phone call is inexcusable. That very same job seeker might be a brand manager someday. I have a list of agencies I'll never give a dime of business to (but I'm going to make them jump through the hoops anyway). |
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| JR Moreau (Boston) |
on 11 Nov 2008 at 10:33 am |
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Wow, this article perfectly summed up every feeling I've ever had about getting into an agency and how I've felt as an employee or interviewee.
Currently I hold a job in a software company after two very unsuccessful years of temping and applying to any and all PR/Marketing/Ad agencies I could find in Massachusetts. I have a good resume and strong internship experience but getting in the door seemed next to impossible. Finally I settled for a sorta-marketing analyst job at a software company that does marketing and PR analytics. It's a good company and a good job, but definitely not where I thought I'd see myself when I was working my butt off in college.
In the last year, now that I have some experience, I've been flown out for a couple good jobs. They were very competitive and I didn't get them, but it felt nice to be respected and pursued rather than banging down the doors of any "help wanted" ad and begging for a job.
I'm guessing now that I'm transitioning out of the "entry level" part of my career I may have better luck finding a gig when I decide to move on, but the entry level part was positively awful. It almost made me want to give up my career path! But I didn't and I won't. If I can't be creative, just throw me in a dungeon and swallow the key.
Again, thank you for this column. One of the best written I've seen on TZ. |
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| lennylyons (bradentucky, flevoland) |
on 11 Nov 2008 at 10:17 am |
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to ron:
its tough all over man... here in florida i see electrical engineers working in the walmart fish department!
to all:
I suppose we'll all have to wait for the higherups in the ad insustry to croak and maybe then some of the young blood will turn things around?
it is utterly ridiculous in this day and age to get paid peanuts to create effective advertising that makes millions. |
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| Brandon (Denver, Co) |
on 10 Nov 2008 at 5:17 pm |
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I cannot tell you how hard of a time I have had getting into the agency world. I have two great internships on my resume (including one at the ad industry darling Crispin, Porter + Bogusky), and I can say I am quite confident that I can perform well in any number of positions at an agency.
I am a year and a half removed from college now, and I have been through nearly a dozen interviews. Every time I have been through this process with a company I have had to deal with a diffucult lack of communication.
It takes weeks to get an email or call returned.
The HR person is always "so sorry" that they got too busy to get back or went out of town inconvieniently in the middle of the hiring process.
I understand nobody wants to be the bearer of bad news, but courtesy should always come as a priority especially from an HR person.
Also, I have only heard back on jobs that I expresseed my interest in through a contact. And after so many interviews and attempts, my opportunities are wearing thin.
I am considering moving to the coasts or chicago where the opportunities may be greater, but my contact lists dwindle the further I move from Denver.
But to move back to the subject, I am glad to see I am not the only person who has been disappointed by the performance in general of marketing and advertising HR efforts. |
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| J Fox (Dallas, TX) |
on 10 Nov 2008 at 11:06 am |
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| Writer Ho -- I thought I was reading my own comment for a second. Is it just the Dallas market that's this way? I've been down here almost four years and it's just kind of weird. But two years of successfully freelancing isn't so bad. Good luck to you -- just don't take any of my clients. :-) |
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| greg christman (NYC) |
on 10 Nov 2008 at 10:55 am |
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thx 4 sharing your perspective. Definitely some juicy nuggets in there. The talent acquisition process in the ad business is definitely challenging. I also agree w/ you that attitude & determination is important in this process. It's out there but it's not easy 2 find the right people who can help. I wish we all could work together 2 make the process a bit more rewarding 4 both sides. Keep up the good work Danny G!
http://www.reelspit.com
http://agencyhustle.tumblr.com/ |
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| Writer Ho (Dallas) |
on 07 Nov 2008 at 3:36 pm |
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Here's another kicker.
As a CD-level writer trying to freelance, I cannot even tell you how many smaller agencies don't even STAFF copywriters!
They "outsource" whatever they think they can't handle (which, in truth, is A LOT) but never really come up with much. They're getting worse than clients who think that they can write!
And to clients out there, we're out here! Hire us directly! You'll pay less, we'll get paid more. Done and done. |
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| Marvin (Detroit) |
on 07 Nov 2008 at 9:26 am |
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Ron,
I have some advice for you ...
If you don't already know web design, learn it and strike out on your own designing websites for people. Advertise your services far and wide.
There's still plenty of work out there for freelance graphic designers in designing simple brochures or websites. |
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| P Dub (Dallas, TX) |
on 06 Nov 2008 at 2:39 pm |
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Just when I thought I was the only one quoting Hyman Roth regarding this industry ... bravo.
At least it's a line of thinking that has served me well during the latest layoff. |
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| George Nunez (Miami, FL) |
on 06 Nov 2008 at 1:49 pm |
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This is ABSOLUTELY TRUE!!! Always has been and probably always will be. The Advertising industry has always been plagued with terrible recruiting efforts and application processes. I'm orginally from NYC and it's almost impossible as a MAN, to get into the advertising industry, and the same is here in Miami. We all know the Ad world is dominated by females, and that creative side is mostly men. Okay. But in order for someone to get into the field, you either have to get hooked up by a friend or acquaintance, or start REALLY low in the chain and get paid nothing. It's 2008 people, how dare you offer someone with a degree $32k to start working for you. That's totally offensive and ludacris.
I'm for one exceptionally gifted in Marketing & Advertising for both Creative Concepts and Designs, but have never been given the opportunity to work for a full-service ad agency because of "lack of agency experience" or not knowing the right people to get in. The Ad Industry practices for talent search is Total Bullshit. |
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| Marvin (Metro Detroit) |
on 06 Nov 2008 at 1:42 pm |
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Hear! Hear! Exactly! Danny G you are right on, especially with this:
"Then there’s the lack of common courtesy. Sorry, HR people, creative managers, and hiring managers, but if you can’t return a phone call, an email, or a job inquiry, you’re not properly managing your human resources. You should quit the business, or be fired. Period."
I am sick and tired of the lack of professionalism in the HR field these days at local ad agencies and elsewhere. What the heck kind of operation are you running (over there at Campbell-Ewald in particular)?
How about the common courtesy of a return phone call after I spent 3 hours of my time interviewing with you? I don't care if you turn me down, at least let me know an answer one way or the other whether I got the job or not.
This has happened time and again over the past two years. HR is run by a bunch of amateurs at every agency in town. |
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| Ron Riffle (Louisville Kentucky) |
on 06 Nov 2008 at 10:59 am |
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Thanks for an inspirational and honest look at our business today. I love this work and I have a passion to create something every day.
Do you have any advice an unemployed graphic designer with 35 years experience?
I've already tried the Walmart greeter thing and it SUCKS.
Thanks |
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Branding. Religion. Censorship. Office politics. Global politics. Sexual politics. And getting drunk during a job interview.
Since 2002, Danny G. (a.k.a. Dan Goldgeier) has been writing the most provocative advertising columns about advertising and marketing -- over 130 of them, covering every related topic you can think of. They're witty, thoughtful and probing, and a must read for those who want a perspective rarely seen in traditional industry publications.
An Atlanta-based copywriter and ad school graduate, Dan has worked at shops big and small. He reads incessantly about advertising, and is a whiz at rock & roll trivia. Learn more about him by visiting his copywriting website or AdColumnist.com, the View From The Cheap Seats Archive website. You can also follow him on Twitter.
He welcomes your feedback. Send comments, criticisms, and suggestions to Danny G.
dannyg@adcolumnist.com
http://www.adcolumnist.com
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